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Ukraine wants a national church that is not beholden to Moscow

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Zoltán Koskovics

The Orthodox Church is two millennia old. It isn't going to change its structure because an unwashed mob created some turmoil in a backwater province. In Constantinople, yes. In a backwater province, no.
Deal with it.
Or you can Crimea river.

dcp123 in reply to Zoltán Koskovics

It's a little rude to call the Moscow Patriarchate an unwashed mob. I'm sure they bathe pretty regularly.

Or maybe you were talking about the Russian forces that invaded a neighboring nation and shot down a plane full of civilians? For them, "unwashed mob" would be too kind.

Zoltán Koskovics in reply to dcp123

Well, the Moscow Patriarchy is a backwater province. The Russian Patriarch is the last among equals.
However, and I suspect you know this, the unwashed mob were the Ukrainian revolutionaries who managed to plunge their country into a deep social and economic crisis that will take two generations of Ukrainians (at least) to fix.
Nevermind creating the most corrupt and frankly stupid regime that this continent has seen since the dark ages.


Imperial Russia without Ukraine - is Muscovy.
The Russian Orthodox Church without the Ukrainian Orthodox Church becomes - the Muscovite Orthodox Church (MOC).
The Muscovites have been dealt a hard blow. They can no longer claim Kyivan-Rus history as their own. Anymore than the American can claim British history as their own.
Muscovy will no longer be considered a 3rd Rome. A dream of Muscovite leaders for centuries.
Muscovy can no longer claim Kievan Rus history as their own. Muscovy will have to start acknowledging that they are not Europeans but rather part of Ghengis Khans Asian clan.
Ukrainians are no proven to be part of the European family. Muscovy is part of Ghengis Khans Asian clan.


I am afraid that Russian money will win at the end. Ukrainian ambitions are easy to understand but it won't be easy for Ukrainians to convince other Orthodox Churches that they deserve their own Church since many people don't see a real difference between Russians and Ukrainians.


The truth is that Ukrainians are Russians. Truth often hurts. Especially if you are Ukrainians. EU should treat Ukrainians as Russians.


It seems odd to subordinate religions to the whims of hierarchies and men when doing so infests the spiritual with the political.

We are no longer in the dark ages when peasants could not read Latin texts (or read at all). Congregations should strike out on their own when hierarchy gets in the way of faith. Mortal leaders are interchangeable in the larger picture.

ashbird in reply to HappyHubris

Certainly agree with everything you said!
"Infesting the spiritual with the political" has to do with converting a religious belief into an instrumentality of politics. The purpose is power. This much is in plain view. And it doesn't matter which religious belief - they ALL do that.