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How about a chart of Nobel winners by country of birth?
It is important to remember that the much of American science was a gift from Hitler, who drove out Europe's greatest scientists. If one were to subtract the prizes won by such immigrants and by their immediate students from the total of US Nobels, I wonder how much the picture would change.
That's exactly right!! Right because it is a FACT.
It is fascinating that that simple FACT is denied by some folks in America. The same folks who seem to find any FACT, any FACT at all, about America that does not say America is the greatest the greatest the greatest without any qualification is per forcesomething to be denied. Very strange. Very strange. Wonder why they find any FACT objectionable. Truly bizarre.
It's because of Davy Crockett, fighting and dying at the Alamo to keep those nasty Mexicans from enforcing their abolition of slavery . . . ooops, I mean, to defend Freedom, Justice, and The American Way.
The best way, always.
Lest you forget
I went to Cambridge university once, not so long ago
Saw my cousin there . We talked about how his department had developed over the years and eventually settled on the list of all the Noble prize winners in his department.
The department earns mega pounds every year from the patents through these noble prize winners
The interesting part was this:
Out of the 13 listed winners, only one was an Anglo- and native born
The rest were all foreigners - many refugees from the Nazis.
And this was just one department.
And this was despite the possible prejudice that possibly exists there.
John Kennedy told us once: 40% of the noble prize winners are Jewish in origin. Time to let this come out and celebrate it
That's right!! What you stated is a FACT. Hard for some folks to stomach.
“...count per head”
Ha, anything to make America look bad. Kind of like the Olympics...when you can’t beat the real medal count, bring in the “population ratio”or the GDP per capital, etc. Of course , when it comes to medal count, these arguments of population are never applied to China or India, just like GDP per capita is never applied to Norway or Luxembourg. Meaning if population was the issue, China would have the most medals or Nobel prizes. If the issue was money per capita, Norway would be.
Concerning the origin of the Americans NP winners is true that most descend of Europenas, but even that argument that “most winners were German exiles or immigrants” is just slippery slope to again divert and minimize the merits of Americans.
But no worries it will continue to go down as “diversification” (not of the intellectual kind, but the “cultural” kind) takes hold. Like a joke I read in mad magazine some time ago : “cause or coincidence: as number of chinese restaurants grow, the cats population shrinks”. As america gets browner and browner, the number of scientists will shorten. It’s a culture thing.
On the bright side, we will probably win more Nobel Peace prizes like that one won by Obama regardless of achievement. Anything that makes the White Guilter Liberals in Oslo feel good about themselves.
There are many ways to correlate winners with Nationality. America would DROP precipitously if Country of Birth was correlated with Nobel Prize winners. Britain would not be affected all that much and Germany would overcome its Hitler Curse and rise sharply. Hungary would gain many Science Awards if Country of Birth was used to correlate which shows how relatively Hostile to Science Achievement, particular if associated with Jews, Hungarian Society has been. America's relative openness has been THE cornerstone of its Global Standing. That is probably the Greatest Lesson of the Article.
"America would DROP precipitously if Country of Birth was correlated with Nobel Prize winners. Britain would not be affected all that much and Germany would overcome its Hitler Curse and rise sharply....."
Quite!!!! All one has to do is look up the names and birthplace of America's Nobel Laureates in Science and Medicine. Not that complicated. In particular right before WWII, a mass migration of German and Eastern European Jews (btw you neglected to mention Polish scientists) to America, some were seekers of political asylum. Now that that generation of immigrant Americans have all died off, America has shown a drop. The drop will continue if the current anti-intellectual anti-science cultural and political ethos does not reverse itself.
Trump says it all. Making America SMALL again. Unfortunately, his political opponents are MUCH WORSE Anti-Intellectuals and obsess about "White Privilege" and merit phobic Identity Politics and just plain "Dead White Male" Racism which extends to brainy East and South Asians.
Certainly I have myself known tons of wonderful human beings in White Males, as professors, colleagues, students, friends, bosses, subordinates, who'd 100% throw off that kind of identity politics.
I have said it a hundred times in my own posts - in my entire life, I have only crossed paths with 3 "white male racists" , and these only on TE forums, not in real life, not ever before. The 3 individuals self-identified as male and white and showed by the posts they hated all women and all non-white people. One attacked me ad hominem time after time and told me to "crawl". Two of the three I suspect are the same person with 2 pennames. So that'd leave only 2. Two in a universe of millions and millions and millions of white males who are NOT racists and who do NOT hate women makes the picture crystal clear identity politics is a manufactured thing responsible by no more than a handful of atypical individuals .
On the point of "white privilege" , I don't personally see there is special privilege in being white in America either. Maybe in the past, yes. Not now. For the following reasons: (1) Reverse discrimination has finally reared its head to the extent an equally qualified white medical school applicant was made to make room for a less qualified "colored" applicant (Bakke v. Regent of University of California); (2) Many employers have "racial quotas" to fill just to be "politically correct"; (3) employments are expected to have equal gender representations in many different fields, some of which make no sense - eg. fireman, construction, any work that entails heavy weight lifting that exceeds the ability of most women and even some men. All of these are in inequities fully visible before our eyes.
My personal position on these issues is the simplest possible, and frankly, I don't understand why there should be any argument around it. MERIT . If "merit" could be the single standard counted on, then all manufactured political identity issues would instantly evaporate.
In any case, I am confused by the point you raise.
My impression is it is Trump's supporters who are anti-intellectual, anti-education and anti-science, not the other way around.
I'd thought they were the ones who keep screaming, if you are rich, you are a despicable "elite by birth", if you are educated, you are "elite by education", if you are somewhat read (no big deal, most people are), you are "elite" by what you have read. That's my impression of what Trump's supporters object to and furious about - anyone (doesn't matter who, what color, gender, sexual preference, occupation, age, ethnicity) they feel ought not be in any position of political leadership because of all these counts of "Elite".
Did I get that all wrong? It is, in fact and in truth, the OPPOSITE?
Your previous reply clearly recognized that Racism and Anti-Intellectualism of a Left Fascist Thugocracy increasingly dominates not only most university campuses but also the "Mainstream" Media and much of Corporate America as well. The ideology progeny of Bill Ayers and Bernadotte Dorne, Unrepentant Terrorists, now are in Ascendancy across all of American Culture and Politics thanks in large part to their Protege, Barack Hussein Obama. America is headed for the Dumps in terms of Intellectual Achievement if Anti-Intellectualism of the Fascist Right and the Fascist Left crowd out sanity which seems to have already occurred.
I am somewhat familiar with Ayers' writings but have never heard of Bernadotte Dorne. Thus I speak with at least 50% ignorance on the particulars of your reply.
I disagree with you on your assessment of Obama's legacy. The man had the misfortune of being the successor of Bush II as President of United States. Personally, I don't know if any person running for that office in 2008 could have done any better. McCain was my choice but he brought in Palin, at which point America politics was a goner.
I doubt very much Obama was a protege of the counter-culture Ayers. Furthermore, even if he were, I certainly would not characterize Ayers as an Anti-Intellectual. Anything but, even if one were to disagree with his political thinking. I like Obama. Certainly he is hated for being too cerebral by folks who are not inclined to think before they act.
I also don't follow why you seem to see Racism as the "purview" of Left-leaning thinking. Indeed, I am confused about your usage of that label. My understanding of American history is Racism began with Slavery back when the nation was founded. Since then a Civil War has been fought, rather unsuccessfully, as events that followed have continued to attest (e.g., Jim Crow and KKK). Indeed, I see Racism as the exclusive "activity domain" of White Supremacists.
We do agree on this: Neither the Extreme Far Right (more recently super-enhanced by the Evangelical Godders in America who would go the extent of inventing an 11th Commandment just to accommodate their beloved Trump) nor the Extreme Far Left (whose shallow vision of a new world order is No law and No order) is doing the country a favor. And I quite agree with you a seed of insanity has rooted.
“My impression is it is Trump's supporters who are anti-intellectual, anti-education and anti-science, not the other way around.”
Your impression is nothing but msm indoctrination. You DO know that even Trump, warts and all, still won the most college educated group, just like all republicans before him. If trump supporters are anti intellectual, anti education, etc, then how you explain Republicans keep winning the college educated votes, keep winning all local elections where school management and superintendency is a major issue?
so You think that the 70% hispanics and 90% African Americans that are decisively NON trump supporters are all proscience, pro intellectualism, pro education?
You ashbird are one of the smartest posters in this forum, yet you are falling in the same generalizing trap that liberal media has propagated: that of comparing a hillbilly peasant of the right, with the Harvard academic of the Left. Totally asinine.
Sir, Thank you for your praise and put down all in one same breath.
Clearly you are the smarter one of the 2 of us.
I suggest you not read my posts. I shiver to think you think, or thought, I am "one of the smartest posters in the forum", as any compliment can only be as good as its source.
Likewise a leader voted by voters can only be as good as the voters. I am not the only poster who sees that and post comments to that same effect. Hundreds of them on TE do. Why do you single me out for an ad hominem attack??? Perhaps you are a King Tweeter admirer of the most ardent sort, and a little bit more?
Have your last word. Our respective posts speak for themselves. That is, if you know how to read beyond 5th grade, even within the confine of this single thread.
It's also crucial to note that the Faroe Islands, thanks to the brilliant work of Niels Ryberg Finsen, currently contains a cumulative 2,025.89 Nobel Laureates per 100 million residents. Let us all pause and appreciate the sheer brilliance of those who come from the Faroe Islands.
nobel prizes require teams, investment and respect for freedom of thought. the Brits have marvellous Universities that provide this.... as do the yanks. the Europeans and Asians do not. they have institutes connected to stifling industries and government agencies.
However they do have many great little minds that would love a chance to free their genius. We should import them on merit not on the basis of a Europeans first EU-enforced immigration strait-jacket.
We need to dump the EU influence and embrace the intellectual riches that would follow.
It seems to me that another variable needs to be examined --- country of birth. Often the individual's education mirrors country of birth. It is not informative to allocate entirely the laurels to the USA and others who "acquire" great scientists.
It is interesting to note that the fall in Britain's Rate of prize receipts fell so precipitately in the Thatcher years then recovered to long-term trend after the Lady had gone. Even more surprising seeing she was herself a scientist in her early years. Clearly the Thatcher policies were wrongheaded in regard to this measure, at least.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
That logic doesn't really track. Nobel prizes are typically awarded for work done many years prior to the awarding, so a fall-off in awards during Thatcher's administration are more likely to have been caused by events many years prior.
Plus, it's uncertain to what degree changes in administration and Nobel awards are related- there doesn't seem to be any commensurate effect from changing administrations in France, Germany, or America.
@blue, Maybe I am a snotty Anglophile among many other "philes" I am. But Cambridge and Oxford do have a tradition of scholastic excellence equalled by few and surpassed by even fewer. America is downright crummy but for all its immigrants. So-called "Yanks" are hopelessly stupid. Just randomly select an "American" to talk to, especially those who call themselves "Yanks" (a cringing euphemism for White Supremacist) in the current Trumpian era. Half of them can't read. Don't expect them to think.