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The Italian church is dissolving its links to the mob

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Two Cents Worth

The Catholic Church has much to answer for. Apart from the Mafia link, its continued effort the world over to cover the child abuse is disgraceful. Even when a Cardinal ( from Boston ) was clearly identified as repeatedly covering up known instances of predators operating under the guise of priests/teachers , the Vatican instead of sacking him , transfers him to Rome and is given senior responsibilities. Yet the Pope ( who appears to be personally a decent person ) condone this. Why does he not clean up the stables ?

Kremilek2 in reply to Two Cents Worth

Because it is very difficult in the organization which is run by an opaque system where you don't know who is part of what clique. So the change usually requires a generational change. But the progress is that these issues are at least discussed.

john4law

The American Catholic Church openly legitimized the Mafia until recent times and this is STILL a fuzzy and inconsistent stance against Gangsters. ALL religions have shady at best records of accepting tainted money. In Medieval times, violence was so pervasive any institution that consistently rejected violence and those perpetrating it would have had a very difficult although not impossible pathway to existence but not Power. To maintain its power, the Catholic Church has had small to no scruples in pacts with the Devil and WORSE!

Canuck Truck in reply to john4law

During WWII, the American Government sought the Mafia's help to undermine the Fascists in Mussolini dominated Italy. It appears that they (Mafia) felt it was a free pass for the next 80 years.
Robert Kennedy took a good run at them. It is easy to believe that his assassination, in some way, involved the Mafia.

MASTER_OF_UNIVERSE

The Roman Catholic Church has been linked to the mafia for centuries. Judge Falconi was assassinated not long ago, and the 'mob' taint on organized religion cannot be wiped away in a decade. The church benefitted by 'Hot Money Laundering' through the Vatican Bank, and the systemic corruption that created the misallocation of needed infrastructure money was never formally addressed. The 'Italian church is not dissolving links to the mob' but I'm sure they would like to given the distrust that all throughout the world catholic communion feel for organized religion after witnessing all the crimes of the church over the last half century in the Western empire.

Bottom line is that the church abused positions of trust financially, and socially. The church transgressed basic human rights of members. The abuses, crimes against humanity, and social transgressions, are myriad in nature. I sincerely doubt that anyone could possibly buy their current rhetoric of being benevolent at the core when in fact that is not the case evidenced in the historical record.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics caught up with the RC Church IMHO.

Entropy is a bitch, eh.

MOU

ashbird in reply to MASTER_OF_UNIVERSE

While everything you said is true and absolutely true, including the 2nd law of thermodynamics, perhaps it could equally be noted the 3rd law of thermodynamics states the entropy of a system at absolute zero is a well-defined constant while a system at zero temperature exists in its ground state, so that its entropy is determined only by the degeneracy of the ground state.
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With the development of statistical mechanics, the third law of thermodynamics advanced the 2rd law from a fundamental law justified by experiments to a derived law derived from even more basic laws. The basic law from which it is primarily derived is the statistical-mechanics definition of entropy for a large system.
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Stated in non-technical terms, the notion is the RC Church no longer exists and functions in a 2rd law of thermodynamcis universe.
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We are now in the 3rd law of thermdynamics universe.
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I would give the present Church headed by Pope Francis the benefit of a doubt.
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Pope Francis is not stupid. Nor a sociopath. Even as quite a few self-appointed spokespersons for the Church, indeed, for the historical Jesus himself, seem to be, and some decidely are (some of these folks from time to time grace us with their appearance on Erasmus).
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DISCLOSURE: I am not Roman Catholic. Indeed, not even Christian. Just an incorrigible Pollyanna. No particular reason for being so except the alternative is harder.

Jonel31

When the two 'partners in crime' quarrel both will end up losing. And losing heavily.
The Roman Church, after its never-ending financial and sexual scandals, is systematically losing its members to the various protestant 'sub-orders'. This is especially true in Latin America that was once nearly 100% Catholic. And the drainage does not stop in spite of the current Pope's desperate attempts.
The three Mafias, especially the Sicilian version, are also in frank decline. In US it has been liquidated while in Europe, apart from Italy, it never had much power to begin with.
All in all, the notorious Concordat (the treaties between the Roman Church and Hitler/Mussolini) will be soon terminated by the Italian state under pressure from the European nations.
Maybe the Popes' official residence should be moved to, say, Auschwitz or other similar 'locations'. That would be a fitting end to the Roman Church. At least, 'me thinks so'.

Martin Hughes

The Local for November 30 reports that the Deputy Director of the Vatican Bank has been ‘escorted off the premises’, an event recalling the dismissal of the Auditor General a year or so ago. This is not good and should, I think, have been mentioned beside the rather rose tinted reporting here. The Mafia and its like are not confined to Sicily. Every banking system is threatened by the Dark Money crowd and the Vatican seems not to have and not to want to have the kinds of controls that might stop the threatening forces from marching in. It’s fundamentally wrong for a religious institution, staffed by people with religious training and aims, to try to run a massive financial operation.

ashbird

Nice. Better late than never.
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And I recall vividly a few self-alleged "Roman Catholics" in the earlier days of this Erasmus blog who openly and avidly denounced Pope Francis as "the Satan", a "Leftist", a "Communist", a "Socialist" (it's all in TE's archive). Why? Because Pope Francis speaks for the poor and the unfortunate, not the gilded rich. Strange folks, strange minds, strange behaviors, strange "Christians". They happen to also love our present President.
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Even Roman Cathoics are NOT all the same. Some seriously bear in mind Jesus' teachings.
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IMHO, Pope Francis is God-sent if you truly believe "God" exists.
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I reitierate a paragraph in the article quoting a Bishop: " The church woke up late to this fight but what’s important is that it eventually took a side. With Riina’s death, the peak of the Cosa Nostra is past but this doesn’t mean the Mafia has been eradicated. Acts of fierce, public violence have decreased [but] we should not let down our guard." Well, the Bishop is correct. The Mafia may change its name and clothes but it is not gone. It now has upped the game and claims to be "God" Himself - Father, Son and Holy Ghost - all three.

john4law in reply to ashbird

Peron and and other Collectivists in Latin America were GANGSTERS pure and simple using the Power of the State as ultimate Muscle in shakedown and protection rackets of ALL of society. Any Pope who doesn't recognize and DENOUNCE this reality is NOT doing his job!! Excuses and glorification and enabling of poverty and poverty contributing behaviors and attitudes is NOT consistent with core Biblical Values. Pope Francis is a problematic Pope and has very shaky moral moorings.

guest-ajemnise

Anyone who thinks the Catholic church (or for that matter any Christian church) has anything to do with Jesus the Jewish apocalyptic preacher is probably in need of psychological intervention.

Interesting you mention that, because that is what Progressives believe.
I'll add this, about the mob. It doesn't surprise me they are too traditional for this Pope. Based on numerous comments he's made, and several stances taken, his bible needs another quick read thru; his faith reaffirmed.

guest-ajemnise

Forget the ties between crime and the church. The Catholic church has been mafia-like since even before the Renaissance Borgia pope. Since the 4th century it has collaborated with imperial Roman power for its own non-religious purposes: power and influence. It has never changed. There have been a few good popes, even Christian popes, like John XXIII and probably Francis, but by and large the Catholic church has been a criminal institution which only Italians could have invented: it is like an Italian opera. It is one of the oldest and most evil institutions in western history.

fibrillarytangles

perhaps this reaffirms the concept that church and state should be separate. The scurrilous behaviour which is present day politics ( and probably always has existed) contaminates everyone who becomes involved. That is evident in the mixed messages that religion in the US is now sending.to the world,

Martin Hughes

Are Church, mafia, banks and state still not locked into the same financial system?

It is essential to have a single financial system with strong controls of conduct. The presence of unaccountable Dark Money systems represent unknown threats to the economic system, and hidden levers of power that are out of the reach of normal laws and processes. They are thus a threat to democracy,