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Donald Trump’s Jerusalem move sparks Christian disputes

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guest-ojeliiw

Politics dictated by doomsday-nonsense is a bit Shitler, isn't it.
Looking forward to ending the species isn't really something that inspires sane policy making.

John Eh....

I was completely unaware that the Almighty could not act without the assistance of President Trump.
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In fact, I am still unaware that the Almighty has that need.
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Were this presidential faux pas not certain to cause the death of thousands and the displacement of millions, it would really be rather droll. In fact, it is merely tragic.

ashbird in reply to John Eh....

John Eh,
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Sound right to me about the Almighty. Maybe America has a Super-Almighty. At least some Americans believe it does. They say: Believe and you will be saved.
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In any event, I have a Q for you. If it puts you on the spot, please ignore me. It will be totally OK. Also, I only ask the Q of you, no one else.
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I have never understood why Christianity came to be splintered into so many different "brands". Given that the Christian Bible says there is only one Jesus (I don’t think this interpretation of the Bible is in dispute, not yet) , the phenomenon is more than dizzying to contemplate.
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Allow me to explain. In the beginning, there was Jesus. Then this Jesus died on a cross - the outcome of a betrayal by one of his disciples who liked silver more than his teacher's teachings.
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After Jesus died, the remaining disciples, excluding the one who betrayed him, went about spreading his teachings which, in the main, said: Love Thy Neighbor (I think I got this part right. I am pretty sure Jesus didn’t say: Hate everyone; better yet, kill them).
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Some time later, the followers of Jesus' teachings splintered into 2 groups - the Roman Catholic and the Protestant.
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Still later, a third group made its presence pronouncedly and prominently known. This was the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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So now there are 3 main Christian Churches - Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox (Skip the part about the many “denominations” under Protestant that now approach a 3-digit figure).
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So far, so good (or not so good, depending on whom you talk to).
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IN THE MEANTIME, something entirely different developed in terms of splintering. The development happened in accordance to an entirely different concept for "branding" purposes.
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The different development in accordance to a a different concept produces the American Evangelical Christians and the Middle East Christians. [Erasmus explained this part in the article].
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All counted, now we have more brands in Christianity than brands of breakfast cereals.
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Q: Which one represents the "real" Jesus?? Do you know?
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As an aside, I personally think Jesus left some great teachings. He was cool. I am wondering if he is crying where he is?
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Again, you don’t have to answer my Q if the answer is too easy or too difficult. At any rate, it can only be one of the two.

ashbird in reply to John Eh....

Part 2 of 2 to John Eh -
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Happy to learn you learned Greek just to understand the original version of the words in the Bible, as “pristine” as possible. Pristine”, of course, refers to “No value-added stuff” as in the interpretation by the Evangelical Christians in America - after-thoughts and more after-thoughts and more after-thoughts and more after-thoughts…..all in the framework of what works to their benefit and advantage, no one else’s. This in the nitty-gritty laws in a society operated by a political machinery bought and sold through an intermediary called “Lobbies”. Even thought a Constitution exists.

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Will pay attention to St. John. I was not familiar with St. John. Thank you very much for that. I have 3 Bibles on my bookshelves. One with red leather jacket given to me by a Presbyterian minister (King James Version, the only one I know), one in black leather jacket given to me by the Dean of Women when I was an undergrad; she was Methodist, one in Chinese translation given by a Baptist minister. All these people were my friends and remain my friends. I did not, do not, see any trace of the “X is bad and wrong but good and right when I do it” stuff in these people. These are also real people, not slips from fortune cookies.
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Re the political situation on the ground before our eyes in ISRAEL - one I didn’t raise in my Q to you - my view is wholly the same as yours. I could not have put it better than you did. That’s the reason I wrote with a Q ancillary to that view.
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A similar view is succinctly summarized by the words written by another astute TE commenter (his initials are S.R.), a person in possession of sense, plus a curious, informed, and learned mind, a polymath and polyglot. A fair-minded commenter [fair-minded means one that does not subscribe to “X is bad and wrong but good and right when I do it” format of “reasoning”]. I quote this commenter below because I can’t write it any better and more succinctly -
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“The move makes peace even more difficult and is therefore against the interest of Israelis, Palestinians and Americans. But it is in the interest of Mr. Netanyahu, Hamas and Mr. Trump; and the latter's self-interest trumps all else.” I am 100% in agreement with this view.
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Again, thank you for your kind and learned reply. I am very happy you stayed on track for a reply to me and did not get off track. Reflection of a clear mind.
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Good evening to you. :)
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ashbird in reply to John Eh....

Thanks a bunch for your reply, John Eh. It is a substantive one. I am immensely grateful.
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Re answer to my Q, I am very satisfied (by “satisfied” I mean I absolutely can’t find anything that doesn’t sit right in my gut) by your answer. The Almighty is by definition a “Court of last resort”, if you will, and no manly or unmanly personage sits in that Court.
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Many Americans make that error. They think they are that Court and they speak for that Court. They believe in their heart of heart they are in fact the God who presides over that Court. That’s how, curiously, they’ve come to represent the most ghastly bunch of racists and misoynists in the country. One such even says the Swastika sign seen carved into the glass windows in Asian churches in the month after Trump was elected, “get the h—- out of our country” scrawled on the side, is not Swastika but a peace sign (THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED on TE community forum - a Trumpista whose MO is feign he can’t read any time at his convenience, wrote that!!)
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These are the lot of “Ugly Americans”, a bunch no less loathsome than the constituents in Daesh, except these guys wear white, the cloak of “Christians”, not black, the cloak of Daesh. Not all Americans are like that. From my personal knowledge, experience and impression, very few are.
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Every bit as hateful, divisive, destructive, nonsensical as Daesh. This lot specialize in, whenever they are totally lacking in any informed and fact-based argument on issues that concern the real lives of real people in the real world, malingering imbecility (“malingering” means “pretend, feign”, as in a serial killer malinger legal insanity) to gain an unfair advantage in public discourse. Some example of feigned imbecility are: a black man’s constitutional right is secondary to a white man’s, a woman’s constitutional right is subservient to a man’s, it is totally fine to grope a woman’s p—— , and brag about it on tape, and then deny you did , and blamed the woman who suffered the groping by saying her breasts hanged out of her blouse..… etc.
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I think the Almighty, in a fit of SNL humor, allowed folks like that to be created as a constant reminder for the human race on what it looks like to be less than human. These guys (for they are invariably guys) like to come at you with ad hominem attacks, with no rhyme or reason whatsoever, just to spill on you the hate that fills their their chest, choking on it sometimes as they spill, if you are not white and male, simultaneously churning the music of “God’s words”, quoting this that and the other from the Book, at all times forgetting - nay obliterating - the words spoken in the Sermon of the Mount. I personally find this bunch of “so-called Christians” in America despicable to the nth degree. And, BTW, such folks are, it seems, also, without exception, Pro-Gun and “Pro-life” in the same breath, a circle and a square only they know how to fit. But of course they are all on Almighty’s Court. So anything is possible.

John Eh.... in reply to A. Andros

Good morning, Andros!
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Thanks for your reply.
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I trust in the Triune God. I understand many trust in Yahweh while still others prefer Allah. In any case, the idea seems to be that the sole God is Almighty. Thus, the picture of Him making His way into the future, leaning on the arm of the gracious, ever-helpful, benevolent, humble, charitable President Trump, is more than a little oxymoronic.
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I hold a very pessimistic view of the future of the Middle East and of its present as well. In any other location, between any other two peoples or tribes or what-have-you, were A seizing the territory of B, ignoring their right to exist and their sovereignty, and killing (according to "The Atlantic" magazine) the population of B at a rate of 160 times any losses of their own, folks might well begin to talk in terms of ethnic cleansing.
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I am very willing to allow you or anyone else to deny that this is the case in the West Bank. However, I continue to get the impression that, whatever else you wish to call it, the result for the Palestinians is just the same. If we were to think in terms of maintaining peace and human rights, then it would seem that the pronouncement of the soft-spoken, kind, affectionate President Trump has not furthered those aims.
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Of course, the capital of Israel is whatever the Israelis say it is. The unfortunate thing is that in creating Israel, the UN designated Jerusalem as the capital, not only of Israel, but also of the West Bank. My impression is that most Jews throughout the world find that idea repugnant, especially the current Zionist government in Israel.
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Israelis seem surprised and very angry that Palestinians resist having their farms destroyed to make way for Israeli-only condos. I chalk their surprise up to their inability to concede the possibility that Palestinians might be human. In any case, they have no qualms about taking their land and killing any who resist.

I often wonder if the Israelis would not be far more humane if they simply told the rest of us: "In 12 months we will resume our God-given sovereignty over Greater Israel. Any foreigners found in the West Bank (and in the portions of whatever other countries they have determined lie within Greater Israel) will be removed and buried. If there are any people there you wish to escape this, please remove them prior to 12 months from this time and date." First, this would remove all uncertainty. Second, the rest of the world would have to put their money behind what they have said for years, and get those Palestinians (and whoever else) want to leave out of the way. Third the realization of Eretz Israel would be easier for Israel. Fourth, anyone Israelis found within Eretz Israel when the deadline arrived would be a resisting trespasser who had been warned of the cost of such arrogant misbehaviour.
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I doubt this solution will be ever put in place. It would produce far too many unemployed and unemployable diplomats. So I suppose the byword is: COME WEAL OR COME WOE, THE STATUS IS QUO. Plus, of course, you have the insightful, wise, and far-seeing guidance of the beloved President Trump.
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I hope this clarifies things a little. Have a great week!

ashbird in reply to John Eh....

John Eh again, I owe you an apology. I got all fogged up in my own head, busy venting my grievances to you, treating you as if you were my "confessor" or something. That was not appropriate.
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I read your reply @Dec 10th, 17:34 again and realized a couple more things. Indeed, God, if s/he were God, would not follow Aristotle, Kant, or Quine. If s/he did, he wouldn't be "God", would s/he?! "God" is not in the market for that kind of competition. I never had a problem with that. Also "God" is not subject to proof or disproof. If s/he were, s/she would outprove the best prover, wouldn't s/he?! By definition, "God" transcends the corporeal, in the strictest sense of the word. How else could "God" be "God"?!
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I didn't ask my Q to "test" you, I asked the Q b/c I wanted to find out how you think about "God". I too believe there is an Almighty. And this Almighty knows more than anybody else and works in ways we cannot begin to fathom. Nor do we need to try to fathom it. God's business is not our business. Our business is to be good to our fellow human beings. That's all. Not at all complicated. Do our best and try to get over this "either I die or you die so you had better be the one to die" mentality before we close the books on our own selves is the most fundamental human responsibility before we prognosticate who goes where afterward.
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I really really, if I may I say so, like what you wrote here: "Who's right? Who represents Jesus accurately? I try to". I think that answer is so right.
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Good morning to you and have a great week!

ashbird in reply to John Eh....

Forgot one more thing -
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The best way to get rid of Hearsay by the Best Evidence Rule are acts and deeds that conform to the words mouthed, whatever the words are chosen to be mouthed. Again, not complicated. I don't understand why so many folks make it so complicated.

John Eh.... in reply to ashbird

Good morning, ashbird!
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A ruddy good question with thousands of answers. Here's mine to add to the pile.
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The Biblical book of Acts gives us a hint to how this fissiparousness began. (Wow! Love the questions that let me use big words! TY!) First, early on, there were differences among the disciples themselves. Hence the need for a sit-down together in Jerusalem to make sure all were on the same page. These were rather easily sorted out. Next, differences emerged in some of the congregations Paul started. Like Topsey, it just grew.
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Why? If today and my experience are any measure, it's because folks try to make Christianity logical or reasonable. We do that with lots of other things like philosophy and motorcycle repair. Why not Christianity?
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God, being God, does not obey the rules of Aristotle, Kant, or Quine. I would agree that those folks have made our world and how we act in it easier and more understandable. But I think God is not a figment or fabrication of this world. Sure, He works here, but He transcends it.
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The Bible relates a lot of information that is counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitive is hard to digest. To make it more palatable, our favourite move is to trim it and rearrange it logically. If one does that with revelation, it simply does not work. It's even worse than mixing 25 year old Scotch (or Irish if you prefer) with cola.
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Who's right? Who represents Jesus accurately? I try to. That's why I learned Greek, so I could read the New Testament in its original. I think the New Testament is clear. It's my brain that's foggy. I'm still learning.
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Lousy answer. Perhaps you asked the wrong guy. There's a quick read that's helpful. Try the Gospel of John. John was a close friend of Jesus, if we are to believe the documents in the New Testament. (If we do not rely upon them, we do not have much to work with. We have avoided the best evidence for hear-say.) See what he says. No, I have not completely understood him yet, but I'm working on it.
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Thanks for your comment. Have a great week!